Ogniem i Mieczem - By Fire and Sword

Historyczna Gra Strategiczna - Historical Wargame
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 Tytuł: Re: Offical Answers to Rules Questions
Post: pn sie 03, 2015 3:00 am 
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Rejestracja: ndz lut 23, 2014 2:09 pm
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BlackLegion pisze:
1. Elite Cavalry has to choose at the start of every movement step (beginning of Movement Phase and later in the Combat Phase for additional movement) if they will move in Open or Close Order. Their choice will effect if the opponent will get a -1 to hit.

-> No. (Page 105 Rev Ed.) "...it moved and march like a unit in open order..."

You can only choose if your unit want to charge in open order (-1 to hit, +1 impetus) or in closed order (+2 impetus, wheeling etc.) (p. 107)


2. Whole unit gets Impetus or no one. But i'm not sure about the -1/-2 Skill for attacking over an Obstacle.

-> I don't think so. (p76 rev Ed.). "The Skill test modifiers are used only for those bases to which they apply...."

3. The Commander has to roll Morale as every other unit where a friendly unit Flees through them. If he fails he Flees too (single bases can't become Disorganized, they Flee instead) But as a Commander he will rally automatically in the Reorganization Phase.

-> Okay!



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 Tytuł: Re: Offical Answers to Rules Questions
Post: pn sie 03, 2015 3:39 am 
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Rejestracja: pn sie 05, 2013 3:36 pm
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I disagree on Elite Cavalry. The revised edition does say you have a choice at the beginning of each movement. Why is this being interpreted differently?

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 Tytuł: Re: Offical Answers to Rules Questions
Post: pn sie 03, 2015 10:45 am 
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Rejestracja: wt sie 05, 2014 8:56 pm
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Is I understand the rule (I only have the old rulebook and the Deluge book), Elite cavalry now end their move in close order, irrespective of how they moved. Since shooting is after moving, you don't get a -1 modifier. (Unless of course the updated rulebook has added something to the rules ;) )
Only for shooting at a charging elite cavalry unit this changes, since there the option is still in effect during Defensive Fire (and possibly Reaction Fire and Shooting whie Charging). But a unit that shoots in the Shoot after Movement stage, again shoots at a unit in close order, so no modifier.

My 2 cents,
Cheers,
Zagin


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 Tytuł: Re: Offical Answers to Rules Questions
Post: pn sie 03, 2015 12:03 pm 
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Rejestracja: ndz paź 13, 2013 2:34 am
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No. As Kontos said you can choose the modus of moving at the beginning of each moving step. So During normal movement you can move in Close Order (but why do you want this?) and in the Combat Stage you perform the Additional Move in Open Order. Or vice versa, or everything in the same order. Your choice.
Defenders Fire is before moving so it is best to be in Open Order and only move in Close Order during the Additional Movement.

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 Tytuł: Re: Offical Answers to Rules Questions
Post: pn sie 03, 2015 12:29 pm 
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Rejestracja: pn maja 14, 2012 10:35 am
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Just to let you guys know - this rule is ambiguous even in Polish ;)


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 Tytuł: Re: Offical Answers to Rules Questions
Post: pn sie 03, 2015 1:24 pm 
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Rejestracja: wt sie 05, 2014 8:56 pm
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@BlackLegion,

What I was trying to say is that there are 2 different situations:
1)
Movement/Defense Order: The unit is in close order, but moves as like an open order, so you move each base and you are not limited by wheels, facing and such. Just movement distance is important (and formation). This movement ends before all shooting, so the unit is in close order (base-to-base contact for beses in unit). Thus no modifier
2)
Charge Order: The unit moves like a close order movement (needs to wheel etc.). Normally it counts as if in open order for shooting (-1 modifier) and the unit gets only a +1 impetus bonus (max). The -1 modifer applies until contact (Question about when that exactly is is still open).
The unit can choose to charge in close order during each stage in which it moves (Movement Phase, Additinal Move Stage). It then does not cause the -1 to shoot penalty, but the impetus becomes +2 (max).

So, it means that at the start of a phase/stage in which an attacking units moves, it chooses which option. If you choose the open order option, but get contact, you only get +1 impetus. So, it's a choose between a good impetus or better 'defense' against shooting. If you'll contact your enemy during the normal move stage, and you want the full impetus, then you'll need to choose the close order charge.

It also means that for a unit with Defense/Movement order, shooting at it never has a -1 penalty for shooting at open order, since that unit is not in open order. All shooting is then after movement.

Just 2 more cents.

Cheers,
Zagin


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 Tytuł: Re: Offical Answers to Rules Questions
Post: pn sie 03, 2015 1:33 pm 
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Rejestracja: ndz paź 13, 2013 2:34 am
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1. If you choose to move as if in open order (just with maintaining base contact) then for shooting you are in Open Order.

2. You can have a Charge Order and in the Movement Phase perform you Charge move in Open Order. You want to do this if the basic move isn't enough to reach your target. If the basic move is enough you want to charge in Close Order.
After the Basic Move we enter the Combat Stage. Defenders Fire is conducted. Then the Additional Move is performed. Here you want to be in Close Order for maximum Impetus or remain in Open Order for protection against Reaction Fire. Then Reaction Fire is conducted.

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 Tytuł: Re: Offical Answers to Rules Questions
Post: pn sie 03, 2015 1:46 pm 
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Rejestracja: wt sie 05, 2014 8:56 pm
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@BlackLegion,

You're interpretation of 1) is way different than what I'd get from the Deluge. Is there something added to it then in the updated rulebook? From a combination of the old rulebook and the Deluge book I don't get the -1 for open order during normal movement, since the unit is in close order, just moves as if in open order.

@2)
If you're outside your standard move and are charging a unit that might have a charge (and thus be able to counter charge) you also might choose the close order movement. Else you might be in a combat in 'open' order when you didn't want that. Just means you get oiptions.

Wether reaction fire still counts the -1 is open to debate. The rule states that the -1 ends when the unit enters close combat. My interpretation is that that is at the first round of close combat stage, but it can also be reasoned that that is at the start of the close combat phase, which would mean that reaction fire and shooting while charging wouldn't get that modifier. I haven't seen an official ruling on this one yet, unfortunately.

Cheers,
Zagin

P.S. Thanks for having this discussion, since this part of the rules are, as Piotroslav stated, a bit ambiguous.


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 Tytuł: Re: Offical Answers to Rules Questions
Post: pn sie 03, 2015 2:37 pm 
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Rejestracja: ndz lut 23, 2014 2:09 pm
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@Iluzagin: I think that you're right. We played it this way in the past.

Reaction Fire: I think the -1 skill counts. in the RB it is written, that all shooting against a unit with charge order get -1 modifier. (p107 rev ed)


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 Tytuł: Re: Offical Answers to Rules Questions
Post: pn sie 03, 2015 2:57 pm 
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Rejestracja: wt sie 05, 2014 8:56 pm
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The -1 for reaction fire is for shooting in the combat stage, that is a different line in the list of shooting modifiers than the line for shooting at an open order unit. So, it could be that a unit counting as in open order gets a -2 modifier in total in that stage. That, in the end, depends on wether the -1 for open order ends at start of the close combat stage of the combat phase, or at the first round of close combat step of the close combat stage of the combat phase.

It all hinges on the phrasing 'This modifier is no linger used when the unit enters close combat.' What exactly is the moment where a unit enters close combat?

Cheers,
Zagin


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