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 Tytuł: query about Delis, Silahdars and kopia lances
Post: pt wrz 17, 2010 4:20 pm 
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Greetings everybody !

I was originally planning to post it into Polish language forum , but as my Polish is only passive I'm gonna have to do it here...

First and foremost I would like to praise the author(s) of the website for doing a hell of a job on the website(though still largely in Polish).. I especially like the thorough description of each and every opposing faction.
This leads me to my query: The pages dealing with Ottoman Deli and Silahdars mention that the cavalry units used the very same hollow "kopia" lances as the Polish and (Serbo)Hungarian hussars... The pages about Sipahis (Sipahowie lenni) also discusses the differences betwen Rumelian and Anatolian units.. the former being much more closer to our Hussars..

Is there mayhap a study/book/source done on the subject in Polish or English language or in fact is there any material on the topic of Ottoman cavalry pole-arms during the classical period whatsoever?


Kind regards,
Samuel from Slovakia


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 Tytuł: Re: query about Delis, Silahdars and kopia lances
Post: pn wrz 20, 2010 10:56 pm 
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Hetman Polny Koronny
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Rejestracja: pn maja 11, 2009 10:28 pm
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Hi

I do not know any book which is specific study on turkish lances. We were basing mostly on Osprey books and Halil Inalcik The Ottoman Empire: the classical age 1300-1600. I didnt read the later but AFAIK our historical consultant - Marcin Gawęda did. I'll see him this weekend at Niepołomice near Kraków. There will be historical gaming convention - Pola Chwały - so I can ask him about it.
There is iconography depicting Deli cavalry. The best is this:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_C6_DXX4pkmQ/T ... i_1590.jpg
Which shows a kopia similar to polish - quite long, with a ball shaped guard and long pennon with two tails.
But at other pictures they are depicted with lighter lances:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... orichs.jpg
similar to those used by this sipahi:
http://ahmadghareeb.com/files/Sipahi3.jpg

So it is hard to tell what kind of lance was used by particular formation. What is worse it appears that in polish sources sometimes term "dzida turska" - (turkish lance) means koncerz sword (estopc). There is one source which clearly says "koncerz abo dzida turska" - "estoc or (in meaning: also known as) turkish lance".

As for the game we had to make some assumptions. We gave delis hussar lances according to codex vindobonensis and some other references. As for the sipahis and silahdars. Their lancess are different but they could be used in two different ways:
1. Steppe tradition which would be closer to polish cossack cavalry or Tatars etc. But they seems to be to long to this. Polish sources states that rohatyna is about 2-2,5 m long so that it could be used freely to trust on one or other side of the horse. Those lances carried by sipahis are according to the pictures about 3-3,5 m long
2. Western tradition - charging with lance coughed under arm similar to Byzantine or 13/14th century knights. After charge most of them would break and remaining have to be discarded because they'll be to long for close combat.

So in game we make two different sipahis types - western - from Rumelia - which have longer -about 3,5 m lances and charge with them western style, and eastern - Anatolian - which have shorter lances and fight with them eastern style (like with rohatyna).

If You have more information I'll gladly read

Rafal

_________________
"Trzask potym i zgrzyt ostry, gdy po same pałki
Kruszyły się kopije w trupach na kawałki:
Pełno ran, pełno śmierci; wiązną konie w mięsie,
Krew się zsiadła na ziemi galaretą trzęsie,
Ludzie się niedobici w swoich kiszkach plącą ..."
Fragment opisu szarży husarskiej pióra Wacława Potockiego


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 Tytuł: Re: query about Delis, Silahdars and kopia lances
Post: wt wrz 21, 2010 3:58 pm 
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Hello Rafał

Rafał Szwelicki pisze:
I do not know any book which is specific study on turkish lances. We were basing mostly on Osprey books and Halil Inalcik The Ottoman Empire: the classical age 1300-1600. I didnt read the later but AFAIK our historical consultant - Marcin Gawęda did. I'll see him this weekend at Niepołomice near Kraków. There will be historical gaming convention - Pola Chwały - so I can ask him about it.


Asking Marcin would be awesome, thank you ! I'll see if I can get a hold on Inalcik's book...

Rafał Szwelicki pisze:
There is iconography depicting Deli cavalry. The best is this:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_C6_DXX4pkmQ/T ... i_1590.jpg
Which shows a kopia similar to polish - quite long, with a ball shaped guard and long pennon with two tails.
But at other pictures they are depicted with lighter lances:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... orichs.jpg
similar to those used by this sipahi:
http://ahmadghareeb.com/files/Sipahi3.jpg


I'm familiar with that iconography.. another source for Deli would be Nicolas de Nicolay's: Dans l'empire de Soliman le Magnifique (which iirc come into several verions) , Delis are also seen in various places of Süleymanname.. However the various European woodcuts (+blacknwhite drawings) as well as Ottoman miniatures are subject to great artistic traditions , often depicting idealistic or even imagined weaponry. I agree that Codex Vindobonensis 8626 is our best shot. Theres more of it here: http://www.turkishculture.org/dia/index.php?lang=en&page=list&page_no=200 (though first register at the main site http://www.turkishculture.org for free), images also have a partial (though somewhat garbled) description... also the images are smaller ,so use the zoom function of your browser..

Rafał Szwelicki pisze:
So it is hard to tell what kind of lance was used by particular formation. What is worse it appears that in polish sources sometimes term "dzida turska" - (turkish lance) means koncerz sword (estopc). There is one source which clearly says "koncerz abo dzida turska" - "estoc or (in meaning: also known as) turkish lance".

Seems like quite a mess... I had always the impression that dzida was a sort of short javelin? Well the period terminology seems quite confusing to say the least. I remember reading some time ago an article by R.Sikora saying that during the course of 17th century even the word Palasz became gradually synonymous with a sabre-proper....

Rafał Szwelicki pisze:
As for the game we had to make some assumptions. We gave delis hussar lances according to codex vindobonensis and some other references. As for the sipahis and silahdars. Their lancess are different but they could be used in two different ways:
1. Steppe tradition which would be closer to polish cossack cavalry or Tatars etc. But they seems to be to long to this. Polish sources states that rohatyna is about 2-2,5 m long so that it could be used freely to trust on one or other side of the horse. Those lances carried by sipahis are according to the pictures about 3-3,5 m long
2. Western tradition - charging with lance coughed under arm similar to Byzantine or 13/14th century knights. After charge most of them would break and remaining have to be discarded because they'll be to long for close combat.

So in game we make two different sipahis types - western - from Rumelia - which have longer -about 3,5 m lances and charge with them western style, and eastern - Anatolian - which have shorter lances and fight with them eastern style (like with rohatyna).


Given the nature of the sources I think you made a reasonable compromise for the game :)

Rafał Szwelicki pisze:
If You have more information I'll gladly read


I'll post back when I'll learn something new on the subject

Much obliged,
Samuel


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 Tytuł: Re: query about Delis, Silahdars and kopia lances
Post: czw gru 02, 2010 4:12 pm 
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Rafał Hello once again,

Apologies for bumping this late into this thread ,but did you have any luck on the Pola Chwały event with Marcin Gawęda?

I have brainstormed the issue of Ottoman lances/calvary pole-arms to some degree with Radek Sikora - who had in turn kindly pointed out some interesting sources to me.

First there is Relacja rządów monarchii tureckiej written by certain Krzysztof Zbaraski who was a Polish envoy to the Turks after the battle of Chocim in 1621:
He basically writes that the only part of the army possesing kopias were the Albanians (Albanczykowie) and some people from the "borderlands" (Ukraina - nota bene not contemporary Ukraine but the marches on the Turco-Christian territory) - check your PM for the source

Secondly there is Zygulski's Broń w dawnej Polsce na tle uzbrojenia Europy i Bliskiego Wschodu (with which I'm sure you are familiar) - on p. 234 Zygulski deals with the Ottoman military equipment from the period of Second Vienna Siege. Among other things he refers to a an Italian eyewitness Luigi Ferdinando de Marsigli and his work Stato Militarie Dell Imperio Ottomano - who writes (drawing included!) that the "heavy" lances with a pommel (kopia - with a length of some 4 -4.5 metres, check Zygulski p.236) was used by the border units Serhat Kulu (nota bene since the second half of 16th century composed entirely of locals- i.e. Serb,Bosnians,Albanians - and perhaps to a degree Hungarians and Croatians as well- check Serhat Kulu/Frontier units starting on p.57 chapter in Uyar/Erickson's A Military History of the Ottomans ) while the rest - that is Asiatic as well as Kapi Kulu cavalry used a spisa - a rather long spear (2,7-3,3m)

Of interest can also be this source:
http://books.google.pl/books?id=XiMpAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA82&dq=Sobieski+1621&hl=sk&ei=Ws7RTPP9C8aYOrOy9JEM&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

-The Pamiętnik wojny chocimskiéj, - memoirs of Chocim war from the pen of Jakub Sobieski (nota bene however that it was translated from period Latin to Polish)
Sobieski mentions the stark differences between European vs Asian part of the army as well as the fact that "lancers stood at the front" (p.23)

As you can see many of the above mentioned facts and observation goes pretty much with what Marcin had written on this page.
Alas I have not been able to find anything on the topic of Silahdars/Weapon bearers. Furthermore (judging by the quote from Zygulski) Silahdars as a Kapi Kulu formation would have been armed with a spisa (a lighter, shorter and simpler spear) rather than a Kopia-proper (at least in the context of 17th century)

Cheers,
Samuel


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 Tytuł: Re: query about Delis, Silahdars and kopia lances
Post: czw gru 02, 2010 8:12 pm 
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Hetman Polny Koronny
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Rejestracja: pn maja 11, 2009 10:28 pm
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Hello Samuel

I'm glad You wrote :)
First I have to apologize. I met Marcin in Niepołomice but forgot to ask...

As for the lances

I don't know if Radek pointed You to this book:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=KKMu ... &q&f=false

It is in English and gives some information about Turkish military. According to author Ottoman kapikulu cavalry used lances (called mizrak which means spear), but judging from attached picture those were about 3m long (page 348, kapikulu sipahies description - pages 347-357). About delis (p379 and picture p. 374) he writes that they are using lance after the Hungarian fashion.

As for Your sources:
Those Albanians could be delis as in delis description You can read that they were Albanians or Bosnians (I'm also thinking that those 2000 of Kara Mustafa Albanian guards were in fact delis...). Those short polearms mentioned in Relacja are propably jerids (javelins). The history... states that it was popular weapon among them and they were very skilled in using jerids.

So I think that sources generally agree that:
- Albanians, Bosnians and some other frontier cavalry used longer lances - kopie. Propably majority of those troops were in fact delis - some were guards of viziers an some of provincial governors.
- From pictures, and texts of de Marsigli and Ricaut we can see that those were Hungarian style lances. Similar to those used by polish hussars.
- The rest of cavalry (including kapikulu formations) used long spears - mizraks (called in polish sources rohatyna, and in English sources lance). They were probably quite long (as we can see from pictures and de Marsigli - about 3m. They were also not a standard equipment. Many cavalrymen did not possessed them. Unfortunately it is not clear how it was used. Longer could be used like kopie - in charge (see that knight lances from 11th to 13/14th century were just lung spears...). But shorter ones were better used in skirmish...
- Many cavalrymen used short spears which in polish sources are called dzida and were jerids. Those were used mostly to throw at enemy. They could be quite effective against armour as they had long iron blades (Ricaut compares them to Roman pilum)

Rafal

_________________
"Trzask potym i zgrzyt ostry, gdy po same pałki
Kruszyły się kopije w trupach na kawałki:
Pełno ran, pełno śmierci; wiązną konie w mięsie,
Krew się zsiadła na ziemi galaretą trzęsie,
Ludzie się niedobici w swoich kiszkach plącą ..."
Fragment opisu szarży husarskiej pióra Wacława Potockiego


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 Tytuł: Re: query about Delis, Silahdars and kopia lances
Post: pt gru 03, 2010 12:05 am 
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Rejestracja: pt wrz 17, 2010 3:57 pm
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Rafał Szwelicki pisze:
Hello Samuel

I'm glad You wrote :)
First I have to apologize. I met Marcin in Niepołomice but forgot to ask...


Hello Rafał
Apology accepted... people sometimes forget, it's normal - no worries ;)

Rafał Szwelicki pisze:
As for the lances

I don't know if Radek pointed You to this book:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=KKMu ... &q&f=false

I am familiar with the source - its an important one , more so as it is written in English imho..

Rafał Szwelicki pisze:
It is in English and gives some information about Turkish military. According to author Ottoman kapikulu cavalry used lances (called mizrak which means spear), but judging from attached picture those were about 3m long


It seems to agree with the dimensions of Spisa given by Zygulski on p.236:
pieces captured from the Second Viennese Siege measure something between 270 - 330cm... thus it seem to me that what the "Turks" called mizrak is what Zygulski calls a spisa


Rafał Szwelicki pisze:
(page 348, kapikulu sipahies description - pages 347-357). About delis (p379 and picture p. 374) he writes that they are using lance after the Hungarian fashion.


One would be tempted to call them Ottoman Hussars. :) In fact one source - a late 16th century memoir by a Czech noble called Václav Vratislav from Mitrovic (who traveled to Ottoman Empire as an envoy) mentions an encounter with what seems to be a squadron of Delis... He says they were the horsemen of the Bosnian bey - they were splendidly attired -so much so that he had not seen anything like this inside Sultan's camp.. the only exception being some dignitaries ( I suspect these might be the "border lords") Interestingly Václav however calls them hussars... there is another instance where he mentions "Turkish hussars" while he stayed in Buda. If you happen to read a bit of Czech than check this out: http://texty.citanka.cz/mitrovic/prtoc.html

Rafał Szwelicki pisze:
As for Your sources:
Those Albanians could be delis as in delis description You can read that they were Albanians or Bosnians (I'm also thinking that those 2000 of Kara Mustafa Albanian guards were in fact delis...).

Its highly probable methinks

Rafał Szwelicki pisze:
Those short polearms mentioned in Relacja are propably jerids (javelins). The history... states that it was popular weapon among them and they were very skilled in using jerids.


Yeah I do think the same.. now if you'll read Vaclav's travels he also mentions local youth in Anatolia practicing a martial game using what seems to be close to a jerid

Rafał Szwelicki pisze:
So I think that sources generally agree that:
- Albanians, Bosnians and some other frontier cavalry used longer lances - kopie. Propably majority of those troops were in fact delis - some were guards of viziers an some of provincial governors.
- From pictures, and texts of de Marsigli and Ricaut we can see that those were Hungarian style lances. Similar to those used by polish hussars.


Exactly

Rafał Szwelicki pisze:
- The rest of cavalry (including kapikulu formations) used long spears - mizraks (called in polish sources rohatyna, and in English sources lance). They were probably quite long (as we can see from pictures and de Marsigli - about 3m. They were also not a standard equipment. Many cavalrymen did not possessed them. Unfortunately it is not clear how it was used. Longer could be used like kopie - in charge (see that knight lances from 11th to 13/14th century were just lung spears...). But shorter ones were better used in skirmish...


Well I think the mizrak lances could be used in several ways .. if you'll look at all the Central Asian/middle eastern paintings and miniatures in most of the cases the two handed "sarmatian" style predominated... but instances of a couched techniques are depicted sometimes as well.. there is a 14th century Mameluke manual describing various lance plays including overhand, under arm , the two handed as well as the "syrian" couched style as well.. I do think the Mizrak is a bit more versatile weapon while the Kopia is more specialized , yet at the same time Kopia could be considered more "powerful" due to its superior reach (+transfer of energy due to the couched style).
-To me it seems not surprising that the European frontier units used such methods of warfare since this would reflect their knightly heritage from the middle ages... Albanians , Serbs and Greek for example took part in a tournament held in Buda in the early 15th century. Długosz for example mentions that Bosnians performed very valiantly and were brave men. Than there is the issue of horse tack.. if you'll look up the border units in Codex Vindobonesis 8626 you'll see some features which were not necessarily typical for Turkish equestrian practices like big spurs, curb bits etc... One of the mounted martolos/deli/borderman has a partialy visible saddle that looks like the estradiota type -a kind of light version of the older knightly saddle used by Westerners and Polish-Hungarian hussars alike...


Obrazek


+ see the picture in full glory here - courtesy of Hungarian wiki : http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/Portyazo_torokok.JPG


Rafał Szwelicki pisze:
- Many cavalrymen used short spears which in polish sources are called dzida and were jerids. Those were used mostly to throw at enemy. They could be quite effective against armour as they had long iron blades (Ricaut compares them to Roman pilum)


Most interesting, didn't know Poles used jerids as well..

Thank again for the response Rafał

Cheers,
Samuel


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 Tytuł: Re: query about Delis, Silahdars and kopia lances
Post: sob gru 04, 2010 12:14 am 
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Hetman Polny Koronny
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Hi Samuel

Cytuj:
It seems to agree with the dimensions of Spisa given by Zygulski on p.236:
pieces captured from the Second Viennese Siege measure something between 270 - 330cm... thus it seem to me that what the "Turks" called mizrak is what Zygulski calls a spisa


Spisa is maybe not a good word. In polish sources spisa is almost exclusively used as a word for spear used by Zaporozhian Cossacks or Muscovites. It is interesting because spisa is derived from German word Spiess which mean spear. Here is some example:
http://papilias.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/spiess.jpg

There is also a word rohatyna and włócznia. Włócznia is different name for rohatyna and in common Polish all spears are called włócznia. As Górski writes rohatyna was called włócznia because it was striped to cavalryman arm and dragged in this fashion. To drag in Polish is włóczyć and so włócznia is something which is dragged. Maybe in late middle ages/early renaissance there was some difference between rohatyna and spisa and so there were two different words. Some early rohatynas had hooks (to hook sbdy ;)) or bars (versions for hunting - bar was useful when hunting bear or boar). They were also not very long - about 2-2,5 m. Maybe spisa was used for spear without hook and longer - about 3 m or even longer (pikemen in Poland were called spiśnik which mean spisa-men). In XVII century rohatynas and cavalry spisas were almost the same (rohatynas were probably a bit shorter). And besides our ancestors simply used one or the other word as fit them best.

So for Ottoman mizrak I would rather use rohatyna (as this was mostly cavalry spear), not spisa as Żygulski. You can also use włócznia s it means basically any kind of spear (of course the best is to call them mizrak as this is the word that Ottomans use themselves ;) )

Cytuj:
Most interesting, didn't know Poles used jerids as well..


I didn't said that. Poles just had a word or those weapons. I checked a dictionaries and Polish word dzida is derived from Turkish language. The same word is used for short spears used by Tatars and sometimes for koncerz sword (Radek mentioned once that he find text which states: koncerz abo dzida turska which means koncerz or Turkish dzida).

Cytuj:
One would be tempted to call them Ottoman Hussars. :) In fact one source - a late 16th century memoir by a Czech noble called Václav Vratislav from Mitrovic (who traveled to Ottoman Empire as an envoy) mentions an encounter with what seems to be a squadron of Delis... He says they were the horsemen of the Bosnian bey - they were splendidly attired -so much so that he had not seen anything like this inside Sultan's camp.. the only exception being some dignitaries ( I suspect these might be the "border lords") Interestingly Václav however calls them hussars... there is another instance where he mentions "Turkish hussars" while he stayed in Buda. If you happen to read a bit of Czech than check this out: http://texty.citanka.cz/mitrovic/prtoc.html


I read very poor in Czech but I managed to understand a bit. As for calling delis Turkish hussars. Both units had the same ancestors so they were quite similar - the main difference was in polish hussars in 17th century were using armour and delis not.
As for Bosnians - it could be quite interesting to note that during Chocim battle in 1673 the only Turkish counter-attack was made by Soliman pasha and his Bosnian cavalry (unfortunately I'm not certain if they were delis or Bosnian timariots and zaims). They managed to get near Sobieski but counter-attack of 4 hussar banners saved king and pushed Bosnians to some ravine where they broke their necks...

Cytuj:
Well I think the mizrak lances could be used in several ways .. if you'll look at all the Central Asian/middle eastern paintings and miniatures in most of the cases the two handed "sarmatian" style predominated... but instances of a couched techniques are depicted sometimes as well.. there is a 14th century Mameluke manual describing various lance plays including overhand, under arm , the two handed as well as the "syrian" couched style as well.. I do think the Mizrak is a bit more versatile weapon while the Kopia is more specialized , yet at the same time Kopia could be considered more "powerful" due to its superior reach (+transfer of energy due to the couched style).
-To me it seems not surprising that the European frontier units used such methods of warfare since this would reflect their knightly heritage from the middle ages... Albanians , Serbs and Greek for example took part in a tournament held in Buda in the early 15th century. Długosz for example mentions that Bosnians performed very valiantly and were brave men. Than there is the issue of horse tack.. if you'll look up the border units in Codex Vindobonesis 8626 you'll see some features which were not necessarily typical for Turkish equestrian practices like big spurs, curb bits etc... One of the mounted martolos/deli/borderman has a partialy visible saddle that looks like the estradiota type -a kind of light version of the older knightly saddle used by Westerners and Polish-Hungarian hussars alike...


Agree. I've seen paintings of different uses and heard about this Mameluke manual but didn't have it so my knowledge is rather scattered. Thanks for clarification.

Rafal

_________________
"Trzask potym i zgrzyt ostry, gdy po same pałki
Kruszyły się kopije w trupach na kawałki:
Pełno ran, pełno śmierci; wiązną konie w mięsie,
Krew się zsiadła na ziemi galaretą trzęsie,
Ludzie się niedobici w swoich kiszkach plącą ..."
Fragment opisu szarży husarskiej pióra Wacława Potockiego


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 Tytuł: Re: query about Delis, Silahdars and kopia lances
Post: sob gru 04, 2010 2:04 pm 
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Rejestracja: pt wrz 17, 2010 3:57 pm
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Hello Rafał and thanks for the reply

Rafał Szwelicki pisze:
Spisa is maybe not a good word. In polish sources spisa is almost exclusively used as a word for spear used by Zaporozhian Cossacks or Muscovites. It is interesting because spisa is derived from German word Spiess which mean spear. Here is some example:
http://papilias.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/spiess.jpg

There is also a word rohatyna and włócznia. Włócznia is different name for rohatyna and in common Polish all spears are called włócznia. As Górski writes rohatyna was called włócznia because it was striped to cavalryman arm and dragged in this fashion. To drag in Polish is włóczyć and so włócznia is something which is dragged. Maybe in late middle ages/early renaissance there was some difference between rohatyna and spisa and so there were two different words. Some early rohatynas had hooks (to hook sbdy ;)) or bars (versions for hunting - bar was useful when hunting bear or boar). They were also not very long - about 2-2,5 m. Maybe spisa was used for spear without hook and longer - about 3 m or even longer (pikemen in Poland were called spiśnik which mean spisa-men). In XVII century rohatynas and cavalry spisas were almost the same (rohatynas were probably a bit shorter). And besides our ancestors simply used one or the other word as fit them best.

So for Ottoman mizrak I would rather use rohatyna (as this was mostly cavalry spear), not spisa as Żygulski. You can also use włócznia s it means basically any kind of spear (of course the best is to call them mizrak as this is the word that Ottomans use themselves ;) )


Splendid! -thanks again for the correction and clarification. I have heard/read about włócznia and rohatyna before , but didn't know what to make of the spisa that Żygulski mentions...


Rafał Szwelicki pisze:
Cytuj:
Most interesting, didn't know Poles used jerids as well..


I didn't said that.

:blush: oops i misread ;)
Rafał Szwelicki pisze:
Poles just had a word or those weapons. I checked a dictionaries and Polish word dzida is derived from Turkish language. The same word is used for short spears used by Tatars and sometimes for koncerz sword (Radek mentioned once that he find text which states: koncerz abo dzida turska which means koncerz or Turkish dzida).

Interesting

Rafał Szwelicki pisze:
I read very poor in Czech but I managed to understand a bit. As for calling delis Turkish hussars. Both units had the same ancestors so they were quite similar - the main difference was in polish hussars in 17th century were using armour and delis not.


Agreed.. they were perhaps closer to Polish Hussar Elears of the 16th century... this "elear spirit" however didn't die out in Hungary or Balkans as it did in the 17th century PLC (It is my understanding that kozak-like troops such as Lisowczycy replaced the hussars as an elite skirmishing unit during the course of 17th century)

Rafał Szwelicki pisze:
As for Bosnians - it could be quite interesting to note that during Chocim battle in 1673 the only Turkish counter-attack was made by Soliman pasha and his Bosnian cavalry (unfortunately I'm not certain if they were delis or Bosnian timariots and zaims). They managed to get near Sobieski but counter-attack of 4 hussar banners saved king and pushed Bosnians to some ravine where they broke their necks...


That episode seems quite interesting :) - could you perhaps PM me the source please ? (If you can of course - so as no to dilute the topic in this thread)

Thanks again for your knowledgeable answers and insight Rafał - I do think we can get a somewhat clearer picture on the topic now...

Best,
Samuel


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