Ogniem i Mieczem - By Fire and Sword

Historyczna Gra Strategiczna - Historical Wargame
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 Post subject: Various quick questions
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:47 pm 
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Ciura obozowy/Camp follower

Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:39 pm
Posts: 21
Location: UK
Hi again

Been playing a little more recently:-

1. On defend orders can a unit move at all(withdraw etc.etc.) or is it limited to it's maneuvers and shooting?

2. Does a unit with pistols always get a +1 to it's skill if in close combat or is this only using the ammo rules?

Thanks

A


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 Post subject: Re: Various quick questions
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:13 pm 
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Ciura obozowy/Camp follower
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Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:34 am
Posts: 984
Location: Leipzig (Germany)
1. Only with maneuvers.

2. Only with ammo rule.

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Uczę się języka polskiego. Jeśli piszę coś źle, proszę mnie poprawić. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Various quick questions
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:02 pm 
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Ciura obozowy/Camp follower

Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:39 pm
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Location: UK
Cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Various quick questions
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:44 pm 
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Komisarz królewski/Royal commissar
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Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:51 pm
Posts: 1251
Location: die Stadt Breslau, PL
BlackLegion wrote:
2. Only with ammo rule.
Why? I disagree.
When not using the ammo rules, unit with pistols may get a +1 to it's Skill in CC - so players will use it always.
When using the ammo rules, unit with pistols always get a +1 to it's Skill in CC, because it has to do so, until it has an ammo.

Quote:
Pistol:
(...) Pistols may be used in Close Combat.

If the Limited Ammunition rule is used the following
rules apply:
A Unit with pistols and still having ammunition
must use them in Close Combat. The Unit gets
a +1 to hit in Close Combat, but uses ammunition as
if firing. A Unit may use pistols in Close Combat even
if it used them for Shooting while Charging (a Base
represents 3 real-life ranks of soldiers, the first one
shot pistols during the charge while the other two
kept their pistols ready for close combat).

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 Post subject: Re: Various quick questions
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:25 pm 
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Sekretarz królewski/Royal secretary

Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:55 am
Posts: 3875
Witek, Daniel is right. Your argument is invalid - there is no explanation how this rule works without using ammo rules.


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 Post subject: Re: Various quick questions
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:28 pm 
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Ciura obozowy/Camp follower
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Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:34 am
Posts: 984
Location: Leipzig (Germany)
Quote:
If the Limited Ammunition rule is used the following
rules apply:


You see? The following rules only apply IF the Limited Ammunition rule is used. If not, then Pistols can only shoot and can't be used in CloseCombat for the +1 Skill modifier.

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Uczę się języka polskiego. Jeśli piszę coś źle, proszę mnie poprawić. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Various quick questions
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:30 pm 
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Komisarz królewski/Royal commissar
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Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:51 pm
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Location: die Stadt Breslau, PL
Ok, good to know :P ;)
(I've never played without limited ammo...)

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 Post subject: Re: Various quick questions
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:23 pm 
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Ciura obozowy/Camp follower
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Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:47 pm
Posts: 392
Location: Almere, The Netherlands
Witold Janik wrote:
Ok, good to know :P ;)
(I've never played without limited ammo...)


It is not fun without limited ammo, imo. 8-) Makes choices harder, especially having scarce ammo...


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 Post subject: Re: Various quick questions
PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:59 pm 
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Ciura obozowy/Camp follower

Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:39 pm
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Location: UK
Not tried it yet with the ammo but going to soon - looks like a great idea


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 Post subject: Re: Various quick questions
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 7:38 pm 
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Ciura obozowy/Camp follower
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Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:27 pm
Posts: 189
Location: Oslo, Norway
My main gripe about the ammo rules (besides the additional bookkeeping) is that they seem too "gamey" without a clear correspondence to what it is supposed to represent in reality. Does it reflect the amount of ammunition carried by each soldier, or the difficulty of reloading weapons on horseback. Yes to both ... except when it doesn't.

Western style infantry at the time usually carried 12 rounds (the "12 apostles" bandolier). When firing a whole unit (either deployed in a single rank, or double ranks in case of salvo or countermarch) it uses one full ammo box. Since they normally have 6 ammo units and 2 shooting dice, this means each ammo box represents 1 round per die per soldier (units with 1 shooting die are usually armed with a variety of ranged and hand-to-hand weapons). After each shot the weapon needs reloading, something which rarely took less than a minute and often more than two for the heaviest types, which can be ignored for a turn representing 10-15 minutes.

Now, for cavalry it gets more complicated. The ammo rules state that "cavalry usually had an even smaller amount of ammunition (apart from the arquebusiers or reiters) [...] caused by the fact that cavalry rarely had the opportunity to load their pistols when fired". Should we infer that that arquebusiers and reiters could reload their weapons more often? Indeed, that was the whole point of the Caracole manouver. However, to reload one had to be more or less stationary while reloading 1-2 pistols and perhaps also an arquebus or carbine. Yet, in the game cavalry can charge up to twice each consecutive turn, firing pistols while charging and during close combat until their ammunition supply has run out. Alternately, they can fire after movement if they didn't fight in close combat (something that is possible to combine with charges if they didn't have enough movement to contact the enemy). Sure, one pistol was in theory reserved for pursuit, but when do they find time to reload between game turns? And if the 1st rank shoots during charging and the others in CC, shouldn't both use only one ammo box instead of being counted separately?

Call me contrarian, but I feel a rule prohibiting the use of firearms in charges on consecutive turns would be more effective than the current ammo rules. The only units who seem to run out of ammo are cavalry anyway, and they burn up ammo boxes much faster than should happen in reality.


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