Ogniem i Mieczem - By Fire and Sword

Historyczna Gra Strategiczna - Historical Wargame
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 Post subject: Re: Pursiut After 1st Close Combat a Fleeing Unit
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:49 pm 
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Pachołek/Camp servant
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As far as I am concerned this is allowed (with the rules as is) but is using the lettering of the rules to do something that should not have been possible.
This is one of the interpretations that's called "power gaming". Playing the rules as they are written, not as they probably were meant (seeing the historical view they'd like). The problem off course is that we don't really know what was meant, onlt what was written.

The rules state:
- A pursuing unit will will get a charge order on the fleeing unit. (Pursuit, page 79 revised english book).
- A charging unit may make a wheel at the start of each phase (page 63 revised english book). The wording used is to fase the enemy unit, which is open for interpretation.
- Then the charging unit moves strait forwar.
- During the wheel to allign you contact the second unit and stop (page 65 revised english book).

So, doing it like Piotroslav describes is allowed, but I don't think it was intended.
If the wording of the wheel at the start of the charge move would be rephrase so as to maximize final contact with the target, this situation could be prevented.

P.S. No offense meant Piotroslav, it is just a pet peeve of mine to get the rules as historical as possible. ;)

Cheers,
Zagin


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 Post subject: Re: Pursiut After 1st Close Combat a Fleeing Unit
PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:46 am 
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Namiestnik

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Posts: 1696
None taken.

Anyway, considerations on rule intentions are pointless as the rule is not obscure or ambiguous.
The rule is quite clear - you can make a wheel at the start of pursuit.
It does not force you to pursuit in straight line. (See picture)
It does not, thus you are welcome to use the rule in your favour.

As for 'argumentation' for real battle I can imagine an order like 'engage forces on right flank and if possible try to bite some of that exposed infantry'.

This is not something that will happen so often.
It requires quite a few thing for execution, just to mention two most important:
[*]enough spare movement
[*]your opponent must place his/her units in such a pattern it would be impossible

It might look as rule abuse, but I see no real reason for it in further perspective.


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 Post subject: Re: Pursiut After 1st Close Combat a Fleeing Unit
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:09 pm 
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Ciura obozowy/Camp follower
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Iluzagin wrote:
The rules state: [...]
- A charging unit may make a wheel at the start of each phase (page 63 revised english book). The wording used is to fase the enemy unit, which is open for interpretation.


Wrong! The rulebook actually says it may perform one Wheel [...] in order to face target enemy unit (RE p.63). Since B is the target in the original illustration, C may not turn to face A since it is already facing B. In fact there are very few situations where a unit is able to wheel before pursuit – either it must have been the defender in the first combat round, or the target must have been attacked by multiple units so it did not retreat directly away from the pursuing unit.

At least this is what the current rulebook says. Apparently this upset some Polish power gamers' favourite sneaky tactics, so they may be some revised errata/FAQ (possibly available also in English) soon where pursuing units are able to wheel, rotate, piroutte, piaffe and dance a mazurka before moving into contact.


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 Post subject: Re: Pursiut After 1st Close Combat a Fleeing Unit
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:23 pm 
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piotroslav wrote:
The rule is quite clear - you can make a wheel at the start of pursuit.
It does not force you to pursuit in straight line.


The rule is indeed quite clear – you may not make a wheel at the start of pursuit (unless target enemy Unit is not directly ahead).
It does force you to pursuit in straight line:

The Charge is made in a straight line towards the enemy Unit declared as the target (RE p. 63).

Charging along a curved line is not allowed, even if an obstacle must be bypassed. Any bases forced to move along a curved line cannot take part in combat (RE p.87 – detailing Open Order but obviously also applicable to Close Order units).

There was a long discussion about the same topic here, except more complicated since it also involved Elite Cavalry and wheeling during additional movement.


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 Post subject: Re: Pursiut After 1st Close Combat a Fleeing Unit
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:57 am 
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Namiestnik

Joined: Mon May 14, 2012 10:35 am
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callan wrote:
Iluzagin wrote:
The rules state: [...]
- A charging unit may make a wheel at the start of each phase (page 63 revised english book). The wording used is to fase the enemy unit, which is open for interpretation.


Wrong! The rulebook actually says it may perform one Wheel [...] in order to face target enemy unit (RE p.63). Since B is the target in the original illustration, C may not turn to face A since it is already facing B. In fact there are very few situations where a unit is able to wheel before pursuit – either it must have been the defender in the first combat round, or the target must have been attacked by multiple units so it did not retreat directly away from the pursuing unit.

At least this is what the current rulebook says. Apparently this upset some Polish power gamers' favourite sneaky tactics, so they may be some revised errata/FAQ (possibly available also in English) soon where pursuing units are able to wheel, rotate, piroutte, piaffe and dance a mazurka before moving into contact.


What a caustic comment! I must confess I am happy to see one here.

Now, I have made another picture.
In this picture you can see, that A charging B would not be allowed to wheel, as it is already facing the target.
As a result, you would make a charge straight forward with only one base participating in close combat.
I would say, it is quite counter-intuitive.


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Chcesz sprzedać/kupić od/wymienić figurki z bartomeuszem, to weź pod uwagę, że jest osobą, która wycofuje się z własnych ustaleń i w efekcie z handlu nici.


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 Post subject: Re: Pursiut After 1st Close Combat a Fleeing Unit
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:23 am 
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Namiestnik

Joined: Mon May 14, 2012 10:35 am
Posts: 1696
Another example.
If a wheel is the only allowed to the point where one unit is facing the other, then, in the picture below, you would see, unit is only allowed to make a minimal required wheel.
This is also counter-intuitive.
Attachment:
facing2.png

I think it is quite clear, that "face target unit" is, of course, a necessary condition but allows a dose of freedom in wheeling.

Having that said, you are allowed to make a single wheel on start of each charging movement (Deludge), pursuing unit is making a Charge with applying all rules except for Impetus (main rulebook).


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Chcesz sprzedać/kupić od/wymienić figurki z bartomeuszem, to weź pod uwagę, że jest osobą, która wycofuje się z własnych ustaleń i w efekcie z handlu nici.


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 Post subject: Re: Pursiut After 1st Close Combat a Fleeing Unit
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:30 pm 
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Pachołek/Camp servant
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Location: Delft, The Netherlands
callan wrote:
Iluzagin wrote:
The rules state: [...]
- A charging unit may make a wheel at the start of each phase (page 63 revised english book). The wording used is to fase the enemy unit, which is open for interpretation.


Wrong! The rulebook actually says it may perform one Wheel [...] in order to face target enemy unit (RE p.63). Since B is the target in the original illustration, C may not turn to face A since it is already facing B. In fact there are very few situations where a unit is able to wheel before pursuit – either it must have been the defender in the first combat round, or the target must have been attacked by multiple units so it did not retreat directly away from the pursuing unit.

At least this is what the current rulebook says. Apparently this upset some Polish power gamers' favourite sneaky tactics, so they may be some revised errata/FAQ (possibly available also in English) soon where pursuing units are able to wheel, rotate, piroutte, piaffe and dance a mazurka before moving into contact.


I agree with your sentiment .. it should be wrong, but as the rules are worded it is not.
There is no clear defnition of what is meant by "to face target enemy unit". This can be read that, as long as on base contacts the target, a wheel is allowed. In the end it still faces the target.
It should be written in a way, so it's no longer a "free" wheel, but a wheel to maximise contact. After all, the unit is pursuing the target and not going for targets of opportunity.

Or, it should be refrased "secondary charge phase", where a unit pursues or make a new charge, and indicate when the new charge may be made.

Cheers,
Zagin


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 Post subject: Re: Pursiut After 1st Close Combat a Fleeing Unit
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:15 am 
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piotroslav wrote:
What a caustic comment! I must confess I am happy to see one here.


Rest assured it was made firmly tongue-in-cheek ;) As mentioned in some other post there are apparently some rules changes published only in a Polish FAQ which are yet to be translated into English (until the A5 Players' Rulebook is published). In Polish tournaments wheeling seems to be must more liberally used than what the wording in the English rulebook would allow, including wheels to avoid terrain between normal charge and additional movement.

Quote:
In this picture you can see, that A charging B would not be allowed to wheel, as it is already facing the target.
As a result, you would make a charge straight forward with only one base participating in close combat.
I would say, it is quite counter-intuitive.


Interesting edge case here. As you say there are several terms that are not explicitly spelled out in the rules, including "facing the target". But if we can agree on a common geometrical definition by extending a line 90° from the front of the base, it is clear that the two rightmost bases of B are not facing the enemy, possibly even not the left one if you measure from the centre of the base. And looking at the illustration on p.57 it seems that distances are measured from the center of the unit front, so if you extend a line 90° from the unit center then unit B is not facing the enemy either.

At least that's how we play it – you are allowed to wheel so that a line extended from the unit center intersects the target enemy unit (and no, you don't have to stop once it meets a corner, you can wheel as much as needed to maximise the number of bases coming into contact). But yes, this is ambiguous and needs clarification (which I believe will come in the mini rulebook).


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 Post subject: Re: Pursiut After 1st Close Combat a Fleeing Unit
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:08 pm 
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Namiestnik

Joined: Mon May 14, 2012 10:35 am
Posts: 1696
callan wrote:
piotroslav wrote:
What a caustic comment! I must confess I am happy to see one here.


Rest assured it was made firmly tongue-in-cheek ;)


Please, do more. I used to do quite a mess in pointing out weird rules to the point I got banned for two weeks and threatened with exclusion from all events. I like people who care for the game enough to get some emotions into it. :)

As for FAQ - Polish FAQ and English FAQ are the same. Both were created long ago and it feels like were not updated in years.

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Chcesz sprzedać/kupić od/wymienić figurki z bartomeuszem, to weź pod uwagę, że jest osobą, która wycofuje się z własnych ustaleń i w efekcie z handlu nici.


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 Post subject: Re: Pursiut After 1st Close Combat a Fleeing Unit
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:43 pm 
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Namiestnik

Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2012 6:04 pm
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I think it's simply a translation mistake. Polish rulebook says you may perform a wheel towards enemy unit, english one says you may perform a wheel to face enemy unit. I think that's the only reason why you guys argue :)


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