Ogniem i Mieczem - By Fire and Sword

Historyczna Gra Strategiczna - Historical Wargame
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 Post subject: Newbie question about Disorganized and orders
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:34 pm 
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Ciura obozowy/Camp follower

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Hello everyone, new player here that is about to have his first match in a few days and I got a few questions about units becoming Disorganized.
I have looked and looked but can't seem to find the answer to my questions about how a unit can become Disorganized so please bear with me here.

1. It says a unit becomes Disorganized when failing a charge. How exactly can you fail a charge ? It says before that bit that if you can't charge then your charge order becomes a move order. Does your unit become Disorganized during that part or is there another situation that counts as a failed charge and thus triggers the Disorganized state ?

2. It says during the morale part that if your morale goes down to Disorganized level then your unit is Disorganized(obviously) but what is the Disorganized level ? I don't know if I have missed that part or what but nowhere does it say in my book what that level is. Is it when you lose 1 morale ? Is it if your morale goes down to 1 ? I just can't seem to find an answer for what the Disorganized level is.

And yes I know that units moving through other units and failing their skill test becomes Disorganized, that one was obvious. Also when a unit becomes Disorganized, there is no way to get them back in good order correct ?

Thanks beforehand for any help :)


Last edited by TB666 on Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Newbie question about Disorganized
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:33 pm 
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Yep, some of the wording can be confusing.

TB666 wrote:
1. It says a unit becomes Disorganized when failing a charge. How exactly can you fail a charge ? It says before that bit that if you can't charge then your charge order becomes a move order. Does your unit become Disorganized during that part or is there another situation that counts as a failed charge and thus triggers the Disorganized state ?

You fail a charge if you have a charge order, declare a target your unit can see, but fail to make contact after the second charge move. This usually happens if you're too far, or had to move through difficult terrain which slowed you down, or the enemy moved out of your reach.
BUT after failing a charge, the unit has to make a skill test. If it passes, it keeps the charge order and continues to charge next turn. If it fails, it becomes disorganised. It is not automatic.

You can't charge units you can't see. But you can certainly declare a charge at units which are clearly too far. It's a valid tactic to, for example, move further at the risk of becoming disorganised.

You get a move order if you have no valid targets. Ex. your unit can't see any enemy units, but gets a charge order. That order becomes a move order. If your unit can see any enemies, however, even if they're on the other side of the table, it has to to charge.


TB666 wrote:
2. It says during the morale part that if your morale goes down to Disorganized level then your unit is Disorganized(obviously) but what is the Disorganized level ? I don't know if I have missed that part or what but nowhere does it say in my book what that level is. Is it when you lose 1 morale ? Is it if your morale goes down to 1 ? I just can't seem to find an answer for what the Disorganized level is.

This is just confusing wording. It's simple. A unit can have good morale (normal), be disorganised or be fleeing. That's it. Disorganised level just means disorganised. There's no real numbers for "morale levels". But, each unit has a morale attribute that it uses to test morale (ex. 5 for typical units). So.. don't confuse the two.

TB666 wrote:
Also when a unit becomes Disorganized, there is no way to get them back in good order correct ?

At the start of the turn, in the Orders phase, commanders can try to rally units by spending command points. The unit takes a morale test and if successful, becomes ordered/ gets good morale. This applies to both fleeing and disorganised units, but there's a difference in what those units can do afterwards.

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 Post subject: Re: Newbie question about Disorganized
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:14 pm 
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Ciura obozowy/Camp follower

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Thanks for the reply on Nr.1, I get that part now.
As for nr.2, just to make sure I understand it correctly and it is possible that I'm making it more complicated then it is.
Losing morale doesn't trigger a Disorganized state ? No matter how many times I lose a morale test(flight will of course happen if I roll bad enough) ?


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 Post subject: Re: Newbie question about Disorganized
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:56 pm 
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Yes, it's much simpler. If you start in good morale and fail a morale test, you become disorganised. Unless you fail a morale test by 5 or more, in which case you flee.
If you start disorganised and fail a morale test by any amount, you flee.

That's it.

There are different triggers for morale tests and yes, you may be forced to take more than one test per unit per phase. Have a look at the triggers, hopefully it'll make sense.

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 Post subject: Re: Newbie question about Disorganized
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:26 pm 
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Ciura obozowy/Camp follower

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Ahhh ok, now I get it.
I got the revised english version and it doesn't say that you become disorganized if you fail a morale test so it felt like I was missing something.


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 Post subject: Re: Newbie question about Disorganized
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2017 9:54 am 
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Ciura obozowy/Camp follower
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it can also ve confusing that you remove "disorganized" by rallying, not by "reorganizing"; the latter us effectively healing.

Quote:
however, even if they're on the other side of the table, it has to to charge.

not as simple as that, a couple of rules can give optional exits (e.g terrain).

but generally, asking here is the way to go!

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 Post subject: Re: Newbie question about Disorganized
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:46 pm 
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Ciura obozowy/Camp follower

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Well we played our first game last week and doing another one tomorrow.
It was great fun and it flowed quite nicely even with both of us being newbies.
But more questions showed up while playing.
I figured I would post it in this thread and it's in regards to orders.

The first is in regard to command points. If you want to give an order to a unit, that costs you 1 command point right ? Units can't not give themselfs orders right ? Like if a cavalry unit wants to move, they can only do so if they are given an order from their commanding officer right thus costing a command point ?

Second is also related to orders. We played that at the start of the turn, that the officer needed to give the units new orders but I read in the book afterwards that orders are remain valid until changed by an officer or they lose their orders. So wait, does that mean that the order stay even after you have done it ?
Like if I order a unit to move, they move, does that move order remain in the next turn ?


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 Post subject: Re: Newbie question about Disorganized and orders
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:17 pm 
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Yes, as a general rule, orders remain until changed or lost. So if you give your unit a Move order, it can keep moving every turn. If you give it a Defend order, it'll keep defending every turn.

Units can lose their order, for example by getting disorganised or routed. You also lose orders after charging and fighting. There are a couple of other situations which you'll have to look up.. I can't remember them all off the top of my head. :)

As a general rule, units can't give themselves orders, but some units have special rules which allow them to get an automatic uncovered order (ex. Ottoman Delhi get a charge order if they get within 20cm of an enemy).

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 Post subject: Re: Newbie question about Disorganized and orders
PostPosted: Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:27 pm 
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Ciura obozowy/Camp follower

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Ah ok.
Well good that we atleast used command points right then.
But that the orders stay until lost or changed, now that will be interesting to try out tomorrow.
Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Newbie question about Disorganized and orders
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:02 am 
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If an officer joins a unit, it's order costs one less than usual, which in most (!) cases means it is free. In these cases you can spend that command point elsewhere, e.g. regenerating, (unfortunately called reorganizing in the English translation of the rules), or on rallying. Note that the latter is not free if the commander joined a unit, but you get +1 morale bonus.

some factions are very "starved" on command points, it would be very hard to play if you'd have to re-issue everything every round.

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