Ogniem i Mieczem - By Fire and Sword

Historyczna Gra Strategiczna - Historical Wargame
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 Post subject: Re: Newbie question about Disorganized and orders
PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:27 pm 
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Ciura obozowy/Camp follower

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Well we had another game today and this time victory for me due to the Forage scenario.
But we did have a quite a big rule discussion regarding Pike and shoot formation.
My opponent had a P&S formation of 4 bases with muskets and 4 bases with pikes and he turned them into the unit.
My reiters got the order to charge and my opponent musketeers were the closest so he did the hide behind the pikemen tactic and all that was good.
But he only did one wound on my reiters and I did 3 on his pikemen thus him losing a base.
Now the discussion was about the combat resolution and how to count it when it comes to P&S formations.
My opponent felt that his musketeers counts towards that because they are a unit thus giving him a superiority when it comes to bases but I argued that because his musketeers were not in close combat(they were 2 cms away) they don't really count towards it thus giving me the superiority.
Which is the correct one ?


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 Post subject: Re: Newbie question about Disorganized and orders
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:57 pm 
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Ciura obozowy/Camp follower
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Did you play a Divisional or Task Force battle already? The Pike and Shot Formation special rules are not used in Skirmish games, so you cannot use Run Behind the Pikes or Hide Behind the Pikemen special manouvers. Anyway, I believe they would not be counted towards the combat, but I've never played anything but Skirmish level so it has never been an issue so far.


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 Post subject: Re: Newbie question about Disorganized and orders
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:02 pm 
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Ciura obozowy/Camp follower
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Location: Leipzig (Germany)
If you can use the Pike&Shot special rule is actually dependant on the list you are using. The Zasiechna Guard for example can include Field Dragoons which have the Pike&Shot rule and the list itself doesn't expressively disallow to use this rule.

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 Post subject: Re: Newbie question about Disorganized and orders
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:17 pm 
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Ciura obozowy/Camp follower
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The rules really are not very clear here. They talk about "groups" and "units", and it explicitly states that the whole batallion counts as one unit for target priority for shooting, but whether everything counts in for resolution is unclear.

By feeling I would say yes given the required connection, and the fact that otherwise the pike blocks are quite small (or entirely immobile), so either way, it becomes mostly useful if everything is a blob...

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 Post subject: Re: Newbie question about Disorganized and orders
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:53 pm 
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Ciura obozowy/Camp follower

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Yes this was skirmish level.
And good to see that we weren't being very noobish and didn't see this solution hehe.
But IMO, if the musketeers count, that would make them really powerful.
And yes it says that it counts as one unit when it comes to target and when it comes to orders but the only thing that it mentions regards to close combat is that the muskets can provide defensive fire for the pikes.
But when it comes to skirmish, well if that unit does provide the bases when it comes to combat res then P&S formations are pretty much OP in a skirmish level since you can't shoot them out since you don't have the firepower for it and you can't deal with them through close combat since they got way more bases then you.
Based on the combat we did, well my opponent rolled poorly and I rolled well but if the musketeers didn't count then I would say that it was a fair fight but if they do count then that block is untouchable and I just can't imagine that they would design it to be that way.


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 Post subject: Re: Newbie question about Disorganized and orders
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:12 pm 
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The rules don't say that musketeers not directly in combat count for combat res, so I've never seen it played that way. The set of benefits a battalion provides is quite limited and explicit. As you say, if they did count, you could have 20 base "formations" getting 3x numerical superiority on most attackers.

Supporting fire is not linked to a particular combat. If your musketeers can see an enemy unit when its their turn to shoot, they can shoot at it regardless of whether they themselves are in a battalion that's being attacked or not.

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 Post subject: Re: Newbie question about Disorganized and orders
PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:16 pm 
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Ciura obozowy/Camp follower
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I don't think that the whole Battalion is counted for numerical superiority. The rules doesn't mention it. Only that the whole Battalion is treated as one single Unit if it comes to target selection. If it would also count as one Unit for Morale tests and combat resolution I'm sure the rules would mention it.

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 Post subject: Re: Newbie question about Disorganized and orders
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:33 am 
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Ciura obozowy/Camp follower
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great topic, i have a doubt also for deorganized units.

So if a unit becomes deorganized for some reason, it cant be rally if there are enemy units within 20cm?
or when they deorganize get a move directly away somehow,
when fleeing units does a complete movement right?


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 Post subject: Re: Newbie question about Disorganized and orders
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:41 pm 
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- disorganized can be rallied on the spot, fleeing can only be rallied 20cm away (note that they can be closer at the time they are rallied, but the new spot must be 20cm away. rallying, formerly fleeing units, essentially move to the rally spot individually in the command step. note that units that rallied after fleeing are without orders, hence cannot move forward, meaning they used up their movement this round for rallying

- mounted units that are becoming disorganised (e.g. as result of a failed charge or a case shot) must withdraw half their movement. infantry remains where they are, this would be tough otherwise. note that becoming disorganized still comes with additional penalties: loss of order, respective loss of pole arm effects, loss of salvo, loss of die, etc etc.

- fleeing units are moving their entire movement at the moment they flee, and their entire movement plus additional movement in the movement step, should they have failed to rally in the command step

hope this helps, it's actually less complicated than it might sound

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 Post subject: Re: Newbie question about Disorganized and orders
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:23 pm 
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Ciura obozowy/Camp follower
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many many thanks onkelsheik

now i get it.


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