Ogniem i Mieczem - By Fire and Sword

Historyczna Gra Strategiczna - Historical Wargame
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 Post subject: Fire and combat resolution
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:37 am 
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Ciura obozowy/Camp follower

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Are any of the hits caused by any sort of fire related to combat included when calculating who won the combatround. I am talking about hits from defencive fire from units with defence order or unit shoting while charging.

In most games I have played hits from shoting are included in combatresolution, but in BFAS this can be quite deadly. I ask because last night one of my pancerni units was completely thrashed by a unit of dragoon who caused 4 hits in defensive fire, thereby not only being 4 ahead but also outnumbering the pancerni.

cheers
Erik


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 Post subject: Re: Fire and combat resolution
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:17 am 
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Defensive Fire is not taken into the Combat Resolution. You only take the casualties that were caused in the Combat Phase.

Defensive Fire is a step before the Combat Phase. In your situation the dragoons caused 4 hits (and I assume also 4 wounds), which causes you to lose a base. Then you need to take a morale test. If passed continue as normal. These wounds are NOT counted in the Combat Resolution.

If your enemy decides to delay defensive fire (a.k.a. Reaction Fire), then those wounds ARE counted in the Combat Phase.
All wounds counted in Combat Phase:
  • Reaction Fire;
  • Shooting while Charging;
  • Close Combat.

Hope this helps?


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 Post subject: Re: Fire and combat resolution
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:42 pm 
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Thank you
It does answer my question. I was refering to reactive fire.

Erik


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 Post subject: Re: Fire and combat resolution
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:48 pm 
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Namiestnik

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Edslave wrote:
Defensive Fire is not taken into the Combat Resolution. You only take the casualties that were caused in the Combat Phase.

Defensive Fire is a step before the Combat Phase. In your situation the dragoons caused 4 hits (and I assume also 4 wounds), which causes you to lose a base. Then you need to take a morale test. If passed continue as normal. These wounds are NOT counted in the Combat Resolution.

If your enemy decides to delay defensive fire (a.k.a. Reaction Fire), then those wounds ARE counted in the Combat Phase.
All wounds counted in Combat Phase:
  • Reaction Fire;
  • Shooting while Charging;

Hope this helps?

They take place in the combat phase, but they don't count to combat resolution.


Last edited by Duderson on Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fire and combat resolution
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:18 pm 
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Quote:
If your enemy decides to delay defensive fire (a.k.a. Reaction Fire), then those wounds ARE counted in the Combat Phase.
All wounds counted in Combat Phase:
Reaction Fire;
Shooting while Charging;
Close Combat.


this is not true. shooting while charging and delayed defensive fire are NOT part of the combat resolution. only melee is what matters here. note that pistols +1 in melee is something entirely different to shooting while charging, and they both use ammo.

both defensive fire and shooting while charging (which do not happen simultaniously) happen before the actual melee. that they can cause morale tests by shooting as usual is correct, and that test would take place before melee.
Note two things here:
a) if a cavalry unit fails the moral test and becomes disorganized, it must withdraw
b) if the target of the charge withdraws or flees as result of the shooting while charging, the first round of melee is omitted, but the pursue takes places, so a second round of melee is conducted. note that the rule "fleeing units in contact with the enemy are destroyed" is only valid for bases of OTHER units "in the way", but not the actual targets of the the charge; they still need to be hit, and your pistols still get to waste that valuable shot :o

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Last edited by onkelsheik on Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fire and combat resolution
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:59 pm 
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onkelsheik wrote:
note that pistols +1 in melee is something entirely different to shooting while charging, and they both use ammo.


That I know, which is why I didn't mention it.

Then I have had games (also at the tournaments) that were played wrong. :) There were definitely cases where wounds of Shooting while Charging were counted in the combat resolution. Reaction fire is something I never did or encountered, so no experience there.


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 Post subject: Re: Fire and combat resolution
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:25 pm 
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Then you had also tournaments where it was played wrongly :)

It's actually quite clearly written on p47 of the pdf

3.
Shooting while Charge
In this Step Units with ranged weapons and the
Shooting while Charging Special Rule may shoot.
Fire is simultaneous and its results (Morale and loss
of Strength points) are resolved at the end of this
Step (before the First round of Close Combat Step).


1. its reaction fire first (note that reaction fire requires a defensive order AND a command point spent for the delay), THEN this is resolved, including strenght loss and moral rolls (salvo!) of the charger.
2. its shooting while charging, THEN this is resolved too, note what I wrote above about the potential target of the charge fleeing. also note other possible morale effects; a disorganized charge target loses order and advantages of polearmes etc along with it, not to mention reduced dice in the melee.
3. THEN only it is close combat, and only losses created in close combat count towards the resolution.

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 Post subject: Re: Fire and combat resolution
PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:17 pm 
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onkelsheik wrote:
Then you had also tournaments where it was played wrongly :)


That is what I said. :-D I was not trying to convince anyone otherwise, just a statement that it was played wrong before. Not tournament, just some games. Guess is what you get if neither player knows exactly what to do.


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 Post subject: Re: Fire and combat resolution
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:41 am 
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Thanks Again for the further clarification.

I gues the dragoons will have to rely on their ability to disorder og break their opponent with their reactive fire. Otherwise they are in BIG trouble.

Cheers
Erik


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 Post subject: Re: Fire and combat resolution
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:32 am 
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Erik wrote:
... will have to rely on their ability to disorder og break their opponent with their reactive fire. Otherwise they are in BIG trouble.


For sure. I had a game. Defensive fire with my registered moloitsy, causing a lost base on reiters and they pass morale. The same from my normal moloitsy. Those reiters pass as well. Well, after that it was just trying to get all cossack parts, some arms, legs etc. :|


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