Ogniem i Mieczem - By Fire and Sword

Historyczna Gra Strategiczna - Historical Wargame
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 Post subject: Lithuanian Cossack War skirmish force petyhorcy vs pancerni
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 5:44 am 
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Ciura obozowy/Camp follower

Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:32 pm
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I'm new to the game and am currently painting a Gosiewski Foray skirmish box and would like to be able to "morph" it into a Cossack War 1649-1654 period skirmish force from the book by adding a few blisters. I've noticed that the skirmish force in the book uses optional elite pancerni (without spears) yet the Lithuanian skirmish box contains petyhorcy but no pancerni and the cavalry regiments for the same period also contain no pancerni. This makes expansion to the division level more difficult. Pancerni or petyhorcy? How should I proceed?

Thanks - Jim


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 Post subject: Re: Lithuanian Cossack War skirmish force petyhorcy vs pance
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:44 am 
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Pachołek/Camp servant
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Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:56 pm
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Location: Delft, The Netherlands
Hi Jim,

For the early period the Lithuanian Division has a special rule: "Elite Banners". That rule can give you pancerni banners in your division (without spears). I'd read it properly, and then check with the cavalry regiments to see what it means. (I know the rule is there, but have not yet looked into what it brings with regards to numbers).

I guess it will be a bit of a puzzle, so god luck with it.

Petyhorcy are not yet used by the Lithuanians at this early a date. Only from the 1662 onwards list you can field petyhorcy.
The Lithuanian skirmish box is for the late period.

Hopes this helps,
Cheers,
Zagin


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 Post subject: Re: Lithuanian Cossack War skirmish force petyhorcy vs pance
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 9:34 pm 
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Ciura obozowy/Camp follower

Joined: Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:32 pm
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Thanks Zagin for the information. I'll go with the pancerni for my early force.

Jim


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 Post subject: Re: Lithuanian Cossack War skirmish force petyhorcy vs pance
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:07 pm 
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Ciura obozowy/Camp follower
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Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:47 pm
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Location: Almere, The Netherlands
I am really sorry, but I will highjack another topic as I think my questions would suit here. 8-)

How strict is the division of the Polish and Lithuanian units among each other?

My question came up when I was looking for some variants, so I can distinguish my Elite Cossack Style Cavalry from the standard Cossack Style Cavalry.
I would like to add Petyhorcy to the bases, so 1 Petyhorcy miniature and 2 Cossack Style Cavalry. I find Petyhorcy better as they look lesser armored and more like Cossack Style Cavalry than their Pancerni brethren (while both represent an armored variant of the Cossack Style Cavalry, right?).
May I use these Elites then as both Polish and Lithuanian Elite Cossack Style Cavalry?

Next one up. I have the Peasant force, which includes Volunteers. These men can be made more diverse with some "foreigners". Both Polish and the Lithuanian can have Reiters, Gdansk Milita and Mounted Cossacks, but only Lithuanian have Muscovite Boyars and Servant Cossacks.
I assume, that means that when I add a Boyar or Servant Cossack to the base I can't use it in a Polish list, but may it still be used in the Peasant Force?

Anyone an idea how to distinguish Elite Pancerni/Petyhorcy from the standard?

Then my last question for now. In the Warsaw book there are in scenario 5, 14 Winged Hussar bases, of which 6 are Lithuanian and 8 are Polish. Is there a real visible distinction between the 2 types in miniatures, or can any Hussar be used as long as it is clear?
I did notice the overcoats of the new miniatures are a bit longer (or I am seeing things that are not there).


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 Post subject: Re: Lithuanian Cossack War skirmish force petyhorcy vs pance
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:34 pm 
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Fältherren
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Joined: Mon May 11, 2009 11:21 pm
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Location: Edinburgh
1. Yes, you can use these Elites as both Polish and Lithuanian (as long as you don't have flags with Lithuanian 'Pogoń' - it should be only used for Lithuanians)
2. Muscovite miniatures cannot be used as noble partisans - in fact as partisans only original Volunteers troops should be used, without any additions.
3. Elite units have kałkan shield, normal units do not.
4. As long as it's clear, it will be ok. In general Lithuanian winged hussars had worse horses and worse equipment, but it's quite hard to show that on few minis.

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 Post subject: Re: Lithuanian Cossack War skirmish force petyhorcy vs pance
PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 12:09 am 
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Ciura obozowy/Camp follower
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Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:47 pm
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Thank you Kadrinazi. 8) On to the drawing board!


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 Post subject: Re: Lithuanian Cossack War skirmish force petyhorcy vs pance
PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 12:32 am 
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Fältherren
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No problem, I'm usually known here as bearer of bad news and destroyer of players' ideas ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Lithuanian Cossack War skirmish force petyhorcy vs pance
PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2016 1:22 am 
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Ciura obozowy/Camp follower
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Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 12:47 pm
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Location: Almere, The Netherlands
Or the Savior (of not wasting money) on unusable miniatures when asked before purchase. :-D


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