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 Post subject: Danes vs. Swedes - is there a built in balance?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 10:40 pm 
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Ciura obozowy/Camp follower
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Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
After a too long hiatus with my Danish project stalled I am reigniting it and have managed to group together a bunch of people starting skirmish level armies in Denmark and some who are already playing. Anyways not taking full credit; truth be told we are a group who has mutually posted about this game for a long time and inspired each other to get started. And three people at least already played themselves in their own club separate from this.

I have had models for a Danish division lying around for more than a year and with the new group of interested players and the new Danish book coming around, I want to get started cracking on my force and I have yet to play the first game.

My vision was also to get a Swedish division some day to play the opponent to my Danes. I like having an extra army to play with friends and family who can't or won't invest themselves. Gives you more opponents that way..

Now reading the rules and army lists, particularly looking at Swedes vs. Danes and associated special rules, I can't help but feel that the Danes are getting the short end of the stick.

We all know that the Swedes are the supposed superheroes bouncing about in Poland and gathering military knowledge and experience. And sure enough they do have a lot of morale boosting special rules.

Now I won't mention all the special rules here for divisions and regiments (or skirmishes for that matter). But when I sum up the different parts a few things springs to mind.
Danish National Cavalry and Danish National Infantry vs. the Swedish National Infantry and Swedish Reiters have in turn the POOR vs. GOOD TACTICAL DISCIPLINE.
That means when Danes and Swedes go head to head the Swedes will get a whooping +2 in combat resolution for every fight. Doesn't that mean the Danes will lose almost every fight they engage in?
Other than that the Danish National Infantry gets the Conscripts rule meaning they get further breakpoints for destroyed regiments. And further to that the Danish Infantry got lower moral than the Swedes (as does the whole regiment).
The one advantage the Danes has is that the infantry regiment (they are almost the same as the Swedish) is that they start at 1 lower FSP. Once you start maxing out a Swedish and Danish infantry regiment you could easily get to 9 FSP with the extra bases, a gun and Lt. Colonel. The Swedes get the exact same force for 10 FSP.
How does this 10% cost differential justify all the special rules and stats in favor of the Swedish?

Now for the National Cavalry vs. the Swedish reiters the story is the same; again a +2 built in difference in combat resolution. Again special rules generally favor the Swedes. A Swedish reiters regiment can have 14 bases and an extra Major compared to the Danish 17 infantry bases and no major.
I wonder again if the differential in numbers have any significant impact compared to the difference in combat resolution. My wargaming experience tells me "no", but I would like to hear from experienced players think!

This is not whining or complaining. I am just trying to understand what silver lining I am missing. Is there something in all of that, that somehow explains (outside of historical reasons) the differences? Is there a way that balance is maintained across the armies, that I don't see?
Also as I am building my force, I would like to know of potential pitfalls and problems, so I can plan ahead accordingly.

For my planned division ("New War" Defensive Division) I have the following regiments maxed out (I already got the miniatures, just need to assemble and paint):
* Mercenary Cavalry regiment
* National Cavalry regiment
* National Infantry regiment
* National Infantry regiment
* Dutch Infantry regiment
* Snaphaner, dragoon extras, all the guns that can be fielded etc.

Also if anyone has actually played the game with Danes vs. Swedes, I would love some perspective on it. :-)
At any rate please be polite and constructive .............. 8)

Cheers
Draccan iconDAN

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 Post subject: Re: Danes vs. Swedes - is there a built in balance?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:14 pm 
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Sekretarz królewski/Royal secretary

Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:55 am
Posts: 3987
Thanks for your post . I think you're missing few thing:

a) "small companies" rule which each Swedish regiment has.
b) Danish national reiters may have arquebuses or even 3 (!) free bases.
c)
Quote:
A Swedish reiters regiment can have 14 bases and an extra Major compared to the Danish 17 infantry bases and no major.

A Danish regiment may also have 23 bases vs 18 Swedish (both regiments with Major) for the same points ;)
d) IMO Danish mercenary reiter regiment is better than Swedish (12 bases vs 10 bases for 5 FSP, 15 bases for 7 FSP vs vs 16 for 8 FSP)
e) special rules like snapphanar, free armors for pikemen, cheap commanders (of course worse than Swedish) + free commissar

Try to not compare regiment vs regiment but rather whole Division to whole Division

You will also see one amazing historical division in the book 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Danes vs. Swedes - is there a built in balance?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:42 pm 
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Ciura obozowy/Camp follower
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I did actually read all the special rules and compare a couple of divisions to the division I chose. I don't really get benefit from "one good division". I need the division I chose to be balanced.

But let's do the math.

DANISH National Infantry regiment;
24 bases = 7 FSP
1 gun = 1 FSP
1 Lt. Colonel = 1 FSP
Upgrade colonel to level 3 = 1 FSP
= 10 FSP

SWEDISH National Infantry regiment;
24 bases = 8 FSP
1 gun (can get two more if they want): 1 FSP
1 Lt. Colonel = 1 FSP
= 10 FSP

So for an upgrade of a commander level 2 to 3 you still get -2 in combat resolution for every fight and lower morale stats.

Danes has, conscript rule vs. Swedish Small company and Large staff.

I just don't see how a larger regiment is balanced against the Swedes.

Or to be more precise; is -2 in combat resolution not a big deal? If no can you explain my why (I am genuinely curious)? And which particular rules make up for this disadvantage?

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 Post subject: Re: Danes vs. Swedes - is there a built in balance?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:55 pm 
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Sekretarz królewski/Royal secretary

Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:55 am
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To be honest I don't think you'll be fighting infantry vs infantry so -2 in combat is really not important (in fact it's -1) :)


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 Post subject: Re: Danes vs. Swedes - is there a built in balance?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:05 am 
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Ciura obozowy/Camp follower

Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:12 pm
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I've tried Danes vs Swedes on skirmish level.
( First published Danish skirmish - Scania I think - vs. detachment in ambush if I remember correctly.)
It was indeed challenging and those national reiters feel rather woeful. :-)
Game was entertaining though, with snapphanar keeping Swedish officers hiding behind their units and general mayhem and chaos reigning the battlefield.

-2 to combat resolution is a big factor, yes. After playing with Turks I am not totally unused to it - key to defeating that is having local superiority.
That can be hard to achieve though.

Now to make things a bit more palatable - the Swedish forces in Halland and Scania are not very numerous even though they do have advantage in quality.
So even with rather uphill experiences in my first encounter I see potential in further skirmishes with these adversaries. Especially with opposing forces matched in time and place.


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 Post subject: Re: Danes vs. Swedes - is there a built in balance?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:07 am 
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Ciura obozowy/Camp follower
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Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
The Invincibles (Swedish pdf) has two divisions; a cavalry and an infantry wing. They are - tailor-made to play against the Danes in Denmark.

Wrangel's Infantry wing could consist of 3 infantry and 2 cavalry divisions. The base has a minimum 2 infantry divisions.
As well as the optional regiments due to "small in numbers".

For my Danes I chose the New War DEFENSE division with 2 national infantry, 1 national cavalry and 1 mercenary cavalry as well as 1 Dutch regiment.

Fielding this is it really unlikely to see the infantry go head to head?

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 Post subject: Re: Danes vs. Swedes - is there a built in balance?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:21 am 
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Sekretarz królewski/Royal secretary

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draccan wrote:
Fielding this is it really unlikely to see the infantry go head to head?


If you mean infantry vs infantry I would say "yes". I would never use musketeers for combat, even for pikemen it's pointless. Infantry move is 10. Range of musket is 30 ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Danes vs. Swedes - is there a built in balance?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:42 am 
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Komisarz królewski/Royal commissar
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@draccan
If none of your friends has Ottoman jannissaries with mehter you don't need to be affraid of infantry close combat too much :-D
Last summer at divisional tournament in Poland we (together with @Adek) threw our Lithuanian mercenary pikemen against Swedish block of pikes, but it was an act of desperation. It was 7th or 8th turn of the game, most of regiments from both sides had been already wiped out, and we definitely needed to finish off the enemy before game's end. This game was a bloodshed - we had more than 50% of losses (60? 70?) and last Swedish regiment fled from the battlefield in the last phase (!) of the game.

EDIT: I returned to my battle report to be precise: due to loss of almost any other offensive force our pikemen went to charge twice - in last 9th and 10th turn. We've ended with up to 50% losses. Other very interesting events from this game:
1) in frontal charge armoured reiters vs. Polish winged hussars two enemy sub-commanders killed themselves in blood duel (both of us rolled 2 or 3 x zero in the row...)
2) I failed Motivation test for our Main Force needing 9 and rolling 0...
It was the great game :-D !

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 Post subject: Re: Danes vs. Swedes - is there a built in balance?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 2:07 pm 
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Ciura obozowy/Camp follower
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I do have a question as I want to dive into the Danes again as well (Dutch regiment ;) ). Are there any changes, either small or large, in the new book for the Danes or is everything the same as in the already released PDF? 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: Danes vs. Swedes - is there a built in balance?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 2:52 pm 
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They will have some new skirmish groups, regiments and divisions but pdf rules will have only minor changes, nothing serious.

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